Safety Meeting

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I would like hold a COR safety meeting in the next few weeks at Hill Marine. The agenda is to discuss safety. We have a few things that should be addressed as we understand more. The meeting is opened to all COR members including all those who have experience with set up and driving. Those with experience and input are welcomed. Understanding this is short notice, we will provide a dial-in conference number for those who are not able to make it in person. We will share the output of the meeting to further get the input if those not able to make the meeting. The goal is to come away with a list if actions items we can put forward. We were thinking about starting the meeting at 11:00. I am hoping we have some interest and ability to make the time otherwise if this to early or short notice, we can adjust. Please let me know who might attend and we will send out final details.

Propman's picture

We are talking about coming to Greg Belda's memorial this Saturday, would this be too soon? We also had a conversation about crash bars today. Scott S talked about getting some "expert" help from some of the longtime experienced racers such as Foster, Bowden, maybe Al Stoker would be someone to ask.. I am definitely interested, and I think I could contribute something from my experience, but there are much smarter guys than me on this subject.

flying finn's picture

We could meet before or after the memorial or on Sunday. I can check on where to meet either there or close by if there is enough interest.

007's picture

I think it is mandatory that this class gets unified and proactive. Greg, I appreciate your offer.

Propman's picture

If you are a COR racer and would like to continue racing I would challenge each one of you to come up with an idea that will make COR racing safer. I have talked to just about every smart guy that I know and have distilled several ideas to this end. We will discuss these ideas at a meeting to be held after Greg's Memorial. This meeting may be at the Ron Hill hacienda, or closer to Venice Beach, either way I consider it super important to be heard. I have this vision that somewhere there is someone in APBA who feels that it is time to use the "Big clumsy helper hands" and "fix" COR racing, and he won't bother to ask you for your opinion.

Plato said it best; "The problem with not voting is that you are destined to be governed by your inferiors"

Thanks for taking my thoughts (my BRF post) to the meeting . I also made another post on the same thread on BRF about the Long Beach race. If you have time, could you copy this too and present it to the members. I appreciate what your doing for me very much.

flying finn's picture

We will have a meeting by Greg's house after the memorial for all of those you attend. There will be food at the memorial so there is no need for a BBQ later or to travel a long ways to Ron Hill's shop. Thanks for the offer Ron. We will coordinate at the memorial. If you cannot attend, please forward your views and thoughts to Kevin or myself or the representative of your choice.

I'll be there for sure. I'll call you next week for all the info in the middle of the week.

007's picture

I wanted to provide at least a brief update to the meeting the committee had today. First, I want to thank those who invested time in putting together our recommendations and the committee members who are putting their years of experience behind some extremely thoughtful input I heard today. We did review all the input from the COR group and those points took up the majority of the 3 hour meeting. Overall the COR input was received well. The committee also had a few other ideas that made a lot of sense, for example being able to operated trim without taking hands off the wheel. The next steps are to collect a few measurements and then do some testing. We need a compelling case that gives the Board clear assurance we have addressed any issues.

Baker343's picture

Good morning racers. Mike, based on the small amount of info you were able to share, sounds like the board was receptive to our self imposed safety suggections and are moving in a direction to improve our boats and racing mentality.
Thanks Mike and the Board members.

007's picture

Anyone want to to find another sanctioning body? Explore Lucas Oil or NBRA series?

Well gentlemen... I don't know what to say about the new rules but I'm still going to be rigging my boat but not with a roll cage, and not changing my steering. We need to get that fixed. Who wrote these new rules? That's not what we came up with at the meeting. My mind might be a little fuzzy after that 10 hour drive there and back, but I'm sure we said no cages, seat belts, or death capsules. uummmmmm can someone explain this one to me.

05's picture

And what is the next step with a time line or??

007's picture

Apparently someone leaked the report and I got calls from 7 people in the class that know that the APBA is going to require a fixed roll bar. Most all are not ready to move forward with a roll bar. All are interested in expanding our race schedule. Racing with the NBRA and/or Lucas Oil series might provide that opportunity while we continue to measure the interest of this group installing roll bars. We don't need to leave the the APBA and we should support them as best we can but in the interest in growing this class, other promoters NBRA and Lucas Oil might provide that opportunity. This is no different from the 05 looking to race in Mexico and does not or should not precluded this group from racing in the APBA. I am going to propose our class and current rules to both the other organizations to gauge their interest in sanctioning COR. In doing so, I need to know your interests. Looking forward, ideally, I would like to set a yearly COR schedule of events that includes races and gatherings where every people want to race and gather. This would include all regions in the APBA ( with roll bars) as well as any other organization where we find a fit with our current rules (no roll bars). Who's in?

Baker343's picture

Unless the APBA requires all boats that race in the APBA to install rollbars I say we explore other promoters. I'm not opposed to change when you can make something safer but I dont feel our class should be used to test someones idea. I dont believe this was suggested by the saftey committee.

Propman's picture

Until the rules are officially posted, I think it is premature to make decisions about what might make the best course of action. Although, distasteful, the concept of a "roll bar" is a way to protect drivers from some types of crashes. How the roll bar is constructed, what material is used, how it is attached to the boat will directly affect how effective it may be. Of course, these things will affect the cost, the weight and the handling of the boat it is applied to. Show me the rules and then I will decide if is a "deal-breaker." The bigger issue is the Enduro rules---should the enduro rules force roll bars on Div II boats, who will comply, when they could enter their Div II boat in Div 6 without a roll bar? This ruins any hope for Cor boaters who chose to do Enduro racing and not sprint racing. Could I be the only COR racer who thinks it doesn't make sense to require roll bars on 80 MPH boats, when they are racing in the same race with 100 mph "Ski boats," with 110 mph GN boats, with 115 mph Mod VP boats, with 130 mph vee bottom boats all without roll bars?
I will race in another sanctioning body races, if offered, but think it important to consider who will judge these races?

DaBull's picture

How many (if any) of these "other organizations" would be farther east? I`m not married to APBA and couldn`t care less about them. If COR were to come east with any organization it would become a much bigger success than it already has.
I like the sound of that Outlaw deal.

Well 757 "Jim" was right. I tried keeping positive with all this political stuff and Jim kept it real. I got turned on to it when I saw you guys run in salt springs lake because it was local. so running in the east coast is a no go for me. So OUTLAW it is....

007's picture

APBA has reinstated COR based on boats passing the updated requirements. You can find the updates on the last page of the rulebook issued by the APBA. You can download the Official APBA 2014 COR Rulebook.

05's picture

Lucas oil promoters or NBRA and anyone else out there that will be willing to take my money, anyone, anyone?
22 cc heads? @$^$&*#?? $$
2.4 Helm? $$
Helmet and new life best? $$
Roll bar $$
I think I just justified the trip to Mexico!! CANCUN here we go.

05's picture

Safer!!! I can always learn to do cartwheels, every race and almost on every heat!. willing to trade a COR Boat!!

You got to be kidding me with those rules. Cages, steering, multiple setbacks, heads. REALLY?! REALLY...?! I'm sorry but that's a joke. I'm a patient man and laid back. But damn that's stupid in many levels. If you run cages you have to be five point harnessed in because if you get thrown those bars will Jack you up. My opinion. Sprint boats don't even use six points. They use four, and they do eighty and roll on solid ground. There's other classes that run faster and don't use cages. This just don't make no sense. someone please explain. I guess no APBA for me.

Got your message. I will call you tomorrow. Tell Lonnie we should start our own Outlaw club! See, I'm thinking positive!

007's picture

I still contend the problem here is that boats are coming together in corners on the short course. The way to fix the problem is to have longer straightaways and no passing red zones in the corners like we do in the enduro.

Regarding the helm, I think you can just change the jets like you do on carbs. It looks like you can pull the lines off the helm and change the jets with a screw driver. I have a call into technical support at seastar to get the scoop. The helmet restraint is $75 from SRP.

While I still support the APBA, I am not doing a roll bar. I am looking for other venues like NBRA and Lucas to race under using the very original COR Enduro rules. Those rules have worked well for 9 years.

STV_Keith's picture

I'm not sure that is the case with the helms. The HH5770 helm is a 2.0 and rated for 1500psi relief. The HH5272 is a 2.4 and rated for 1000psi relief.

Personally, I want the higher relief in my helm so that there is no chance of it bypassing (the ram pushing fluid past the relief in the helm and allowing the engine to turn itself).

Keith-

Your mechanical knowledge on the helms just confirms what I already know about the APBA representatives in their so-called "committee" looking out for our best interest... zilch!

By the by, whom were these monumental imbeciles who made up these new rules? Maybe I should take that question back. I should say they're brilliant political hacks. They knew exactly how to dispose of the fastest growing class in boat racing with irrational costly rules because of a fictional problem which they perceived as a liability. Men with power, what can I say?

When I see all the flat bottom classes and GN's put on roll bars, then I'll eat crow, but I'm not worried about that whatsoever. It will never happen!!!

APBA reps'... please go take a long walk on a short pier! Thank you.

Rage28's picture

My name is Scott Schatz please feel free to contact me 951-403-7775 if you would like to be enlightened. I will try and stay away from any piers until I hear from you.

I wish I could here that conversation...lol!!! :)

How could you possibly enlighten me? I don't think you could so there really isn't any reason for me to call you. I sincerely hope you have read all my posts on this subject!

I would assume you run a crackerbox by the picture you have included with your post. I'll tell you what, when you install a "driver protection bar system" on your cracker, then maybe I'll give you a call. But I'm quite confident that will never happen, so there won't be any need for you to enlighten me, will there Mr. APBA Rep.?

Rage28's picture

I will say you are right about one thing no reason to try to enlighten you. Impossible to do with someone who's mind is closed off and won't stop running there mouth long enough to learn something. You see you are a victim of your creation in your mind you have convinced your self that no one is as smart as you, you have all the answers and you don't need anyone to tell you what to do or how to do it because you are the best right? Well your cynicism goes hand and hand with your ignorance. I hope you enjoy pulling tubers with your boat. If the photo of the Cracker somehow offends you because it does not have a roll bar I could change it to one of my capsule K boat or my capsule N/M hydro or my capsule 5 litre or if capsules and role bars just don't set well with you I would be happy to put up my FE hydro something you could relate to I think. Best Wishes

For all those that need help in interrupting the rules or need assistance with setting up and mounting your system my doors are always open. Feel free to call me I will help in anyway.

Scott

Hey Scott you have a capsule 5 litre? That's the class that I would like to eventually get to. I follow that class a little bit. I heard about the rule change with bringing in sbc 350 in and modifying the 305 or something like that. always wanted to run those. maybe in the future we can sit and talk about that class. My goals are to eventually get to that class. Heard there a blast.

I would like to know if I can give you a ring? I would really like to know about this cage design and why don't other faster classes have them. Not to argue but have a serious conversation about it. If so you can call me if you like. (209) 430-0739. James

05's picture

Thanks for the info. I just don't think anyone will be ready for Long Beach and we will need 5 boats to have a race. I think we just need to focus on contacting Lucas oil or NBRA or anyone willing to take our $$$$

DaBull's picture

Who and where is NBRA? Sounds good to me. Hope they extend out my way.

I was afraid APBA would come back with some roll bar, safety cell type of rule. COR has been singled out and made an example of. This could be because of it being a fairly new class. GN, Kneel downs and all other non-restraint cockpit classes have been intact for many years and are national.

A great group of racers who are doing things right. Mostly from Louisiana, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Missouri, etc, I'm sure I left some states out. Oh and I guess the members would also include all of the USTS pro guys who recently decided to split from APBA. They do not run anything but small hydroplanes or runabouts. This was the original AOF group that split from AOF when it was taken over by northwest inboards. They run a very tight ship. In other words their programs don't last 12 hours and they usually provide tow money. I usually attend one of their races every year to act as a pick up boat. I was thinking about taking my COR boat last year just to play around. If I can be of any help with them let me know, but I don't know what value we would bring to them.
It will be interesting to see what Div. II in the enduro will look like, as that is my main area of focus.

Is there any way to do a roll bar without restraints/oxygen systems? How do the tri hull guys do it?

Maybe we put a roll bar on and then we have a place to mount speakers and pull wake boarders? (Sorry just trying to keep it light) :)

Todd Stone

I dont see the description of the seat belts. That cant be right. Steel bars without a restraint system is a death trap. Also, reducing the min weight, and giving us more power at the current weight doesnt make sense.
The rest of it looks pretty much like what we talked about, but I just dont see anybody here putting a roll bar in their boat.

007's picture

It is a roll bar with a head loop behind the driver, not roll cages with seat belts.

007's picture

Ski Racers only run enduros. This might be another group that could pick-up our class. http://www.nwsra.net/Resources.html

That makes more sense. What about the lighter weight and or higher compression? Any idea on what the reasoning is on that?

007's picture

The boat designers on the committe believe that more weight makes the boats handle worse in the corners, particularly with low torque to be able to rely upon to pick the boat up coming out of the corner. This might cause racers to over-drive the corners due to limited amount of available time to pass on the short straight-a-ways. Lighter boats should handle better. They did not want to penalize the heavier boats so they gave them more power with 22 cc heads.

So they want something more like a cage seat basically. like a sprint car dragster kind of design? So our seats sit inside? I might have to think about that one. need to see it first. The part about securing it the hull is what I don't like.

As the rule states... to be secured at 6 hard mounting locations. At 6 mounting points to the hull, call what you like, it's still a multi-bar roll bar/roll cage.

I'm sure it will be much like the jet sprint boats that race up in the Northwest. That's fine with an all aluminum boat, but it will be a joke when mounted to the floor (tunnel section) on an all fiberglass boat.

Let's see, 6 mounting points with four, 1/2 inch diameter bolts per location which will add up to 24 1/2 inch holes in the bottom of your boat. Even at two bolts per "hard mounting location" is 12 too many holes, let alone, 24 to be drilled through my boat bottom. Not going to happen to my boat!

This is utterly pure nonsense!!

007's picture

Still waiting on specs for the roll bar from APBA. Last night I did get a note saying they are still working on it. I have not had a chance to yet connect with Lucas, NBRA, but I did get a return call from the Water Ski racers who race on the full Parker course. Hopefully next week my work schedule will slow and I can follow-up on the others.

Propman's picture

I have been looking for specs for a roll bar, in order to make one. Or to decide not to make one, it is hard to complain about something without knowing what it is we are complaining about. It seems to me if we hope to salvage a season this year I need to get the welder out soon.

Maybe I'm missing something, but this "stall" makes it seem like APBA hung us out to dry, but just didn't say it in so many words.

007's picture

I spoke with Scott again last night, apparently he has had a few personal things he has needed to deal with but he did tell me he is working on it.

007's picture

The APBA has posted the new COR rules on the APBA website. The new stuff is highlighted in yellow. The COR class is re-instated. APBA has been informed that they may include COR on future sanctions.

It is important that the class members understand that to participate they must comply with the new rules.

The class is reinstated and CORs must comply with the new rules before they are allowed to participate in an APBA race.

COR inspector and competition supervisor will be put inlace for Region 11 and Region 12.

You can download the Official APBA 2014 COR Rulebook.

There's always golf...lol!!! :)

Why doesn't APBA require a "driver protection bar system" in all the inboard flat bottom classes?

You may have a couple of zealots in this group who will install this "driver protection bar system", but my bet is that APBA just killed this class. Even if three boats are willing to do this, COR will eventually become extinct within a couple of years at best.

Myself being well associated with race cars, I bet the majority of you guys don't have a clue as to how much $$ it's going to cost for that 4130 chromium-molybdenum seamless tubing, plus the cost to have all the bends made to it. Then there is the welding cost. I have both tig and mig welding machines and can weld with both and I know why they're only allowing tig welding!

Even though I can acquire the chromium tubing at wholesale price and can tig weld, I'm not going to oblige APBA until they mandate all flat bottom classes, including crackerboxes to install a "driver protection bar system" in their boats. And that my friends is never going to happen!

Soooo... we're done... unless you guys decide to go OUTLAW.

GO OUTLAW!!!!!!!

ps... thanks Mike for posting the rules that were easily accessible.

I have to say after speaking to Scott about the cage I have to agree with him. I purchased my boat to race. plane and simple. I'm willing to build this cage that will probably looking at the prices of the material only going to cost me 250$ to 300$. Taking off a setback or jackplate whatever you want to call it and just run one is not a big deal. changing my steering is not a big deal either. I think we need to just start to be positive about it because it just is what it is. All these rules are setup for our protection. Our safety is number one. There is no price large enough to see my wife and kids

Well James, after reading your post there isn't really any need for me to call you.

I just finished re-reading the "driver protection bar system" rule and you say "probably" only going to cost $250 to $300 in materials. The word "probably" is just that, not fact. I have purchased chromoly wholesale and the price you quoted doesn't jive with what I have experienced in the past.

Even if you were able to acquire chromoly tubing at that price you will still need to take it to a professional to have the bends made to them and that my friend is extremely pricey! I know because I had front and rear bumpers (chromoly) made for our Grand American Modified race car and just the two of them cost me $550 and I did the welding. The material is not cheap to begin with, but having the bends made was extremely expensive. Then you better know a certified welder to do the tig welding and once again, that is very expensive. And, with all of that, it had better be done correctly the first time or it will even become more costly if it doesn't meet APBA's criteria.

As far as the helm, did you read Keith's knowledge on the specs as far as psi release pressures? Tell me why a 2.4 is better than a 2.0. And for what?, a 1/4 less turn in one direction with maybe a little bit better feedback. I already explained my situation in an earlier post on this nonsense by APBA's mandate on using a 2.4! That 2.4 helm is around $600 and you will need the proper hydraulic lines for that system, that is if your steering system that is mounted to your engine is capable of handling the new helm. As I stated before, just recently, my top of the line 2.0 SeaStar system, cost me $1400, and APBA telling me I have to throw another $600 at it. I can't say publicly on this forum what I'd like to say to them about this, but I think you get my drift.

Now, if you want to dump another $2,000 or better (don't forget the lanyards, you'll need a new life jacket for that) into your boat to oblige APBA for maybe two races a year. please do so. Not us.

My son and I were just now discussing the design of the "driver protection bar system" and he poignantly pointed out to me, "how is that going to save you if you spin out and another boat hits you head-on? Your head will be crushed like a grape against the back of that "padded" X-bar, that's what! And I added, if you catch an outside edge in a turn and barrel-roll you'll be going down with the ship like a good captain should. Ship of Fools that is!

You once again mentioned that "positive" idealism. Go ahead and put a financial burden on yourself thinking "positive". My son and I prefer to be "negative" and spend our money on more worthwhile endeavors. Our boat has become a HUGE financial loss to us as it is thanks to APBA and we're not dumping any more money into this fiasco on their behalf.

There is one last thought I have, the question still remains, why doesn't ABPA mandate all inboard classes with open cockpits to install "driver protection bar systems" in their boats? They have had many deaths including boats running over one another in the past 60+ years. Why?.... I'm not holding my breath because I know they cannot or will not answer this question directly and truthfully.

APBA says that where you mount the bars on top of the air entrapment tunnel pads has to a minimum of 1 inch thick. Really? If your boat is that thick at that location then it's got to be an oil tanker. I highly doubt any of the top performance tunnel boats are 1 inch thick at the top of the tunnel. I know my GMT doesn't meet that requirement, period.

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